Yellowstones


Robert Federle
 

I have a question,

I have a set of erection drawing of a DM&IR Yellowstone. There are several drawings in the lot and the locomotive has one print that, when unrolled is like 15 feet long.

How similar were the B&O Yellowstones to those of the DM&IR?

Thanks to all in advance.

Robert Federle
Hamilton Ohio


Jim Mischke
 


Probably differed in every possible way.  Except wheel arrangement and rail gauge.


With model manufacturers, I encounter hopeful questions like this ..... one anonymous UP 2-8-8-4 manufacturer inquired if the EM-1 was the same .... hoping to use the drive mechanism for both.    No such luck.


In steam days, railroads designed steam engines around the job they were expected to do, with no regard for what other railroads were doing.    "Not invented here."   "Our problems are different."   Railroads would go to Alco, Baldwin or Lima with rolled blueprints by the chinload detailing what they wanted.    The steam builders were job shops, not mass production assembly lines.   There is an engineering commandment "You shalt not miss a customer specification,." and the steam builders obeyed it.


This wasn't just ego and whimsy.   George Emerson and Dan Willard were determined that B&O's inferior route could be countered with more efficient steam motive power.  In hindsight, first mover status with a breakthrough steam locmotive technology would not have lasted long, within six months to a year, other railroads would adopt it too.   Especially PRR.  Ugh.


EMD found the inner fortitude to turn away railroad customers who wanted EMD diesels done their way.   EMD brought mass production principles and parts commonality marketwide.   The economics were so compelling, the railroads they turned away came back.  Nonetheless it was a gamble.


Back to models, one suggestion I repeat often to manufacturers is producing a B&O E-24 2-8-0.   This is based on a PRR 2-8-0 design, the H-6a, I think.   Long Island had them too.    Theoretically, three road names for one basic design.    One can also eliminate the pony truck and have a B&O L-1a 0-8-0 switcher as well.   No takers yet.   Maybe they have not run out of USRA ideas yet.










On Thursday, July 1, 2021, 05:08:43 PM MDT, Robert Federle <rfederle@...> wrote:


I have a question,

I have a set of erection drawing of a DM&IR Yellowstone. There are several drawings in the lot and the locomotive has one print that, when unrolled is like 15 feet long.

How similar were the B&O Yellowstones to those of the DM&IR?

Thanks to all in advance.

Robert Federle
Hamilton Ohio


Robert Federle
 

Thank you Jim,

I thought that would be the case but was somewhat hopefull.

That is what I liked about EMD engines. So many interchangable parts even among the 567s and 645s. Loved working with those.

Dan Finfrock had told me a few weeks ago the B&O removed the pony truck from several and I believe I believe the later versions were L2's. According to number series there were a few of those working the yard and local runs in Hamilton Oh.

Thanks again Jim.

Robert Federle
Hamilton Ohio


From: main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io <main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io> on behalf of Jim Mischke <jmischke@...>
Sent: Thursday, July 1, 2021 7:52 PM
To: main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io <main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList] Yellowstones
 

Probably differed in every possible way.  Except wheel arrangement and rail gauge.


With model manufacturers, I encounter hopeful questions like this ..... one anonymous UP 2-8-8-4 manufacturer inquired if the EM-1 was the same .... hoping to use the drive mechanism for both.    No such luck.


In steam days, railroads designed steam engines around the job they were expected to do, with no regard for what other railroads were doing.    "Not invented here."   "Our problems are different."   Railroads would go to Alco, Baldwin or Lima with rolled blueprints by the chinload detailing what they wanted.    The steam builders were job shops, not mass production assembly lines.   There is an engineering commandment "You shalt not miss a customer specification,." and the steam builders obeyed it.


This wasn't just ego and whimsy.   George Emerson and Dan Willard were determined that B&O's inferior route could be countered with more efficient steam motive power.  In hindsight, first mover status with a breakthrough steam locmotive technology would not have lasted long, within six months to a year, other railroads would adopt it too.   Especially PRR.  Ugh.


EMD found the inner fortitude to turn away railroad customers who wanted EMD diesels done their way.   EMD brought mass production principles and parts commonality marketwide.   The economics were so compelling, the railroads they turned away came back.  Nonetheless it was a gamble.


Back to models, one suggestion I repeat often to manufacturers is producing a B&O E-24 2-8-0.   This is based on a PRR 2-8-0 design, the H-6a, I think.   Long Island had them too.    Theoretically, three road names for one basic design.    One can also eliminate the pony truck and have a B&O L-1a 0-8-0 switcher as well.   No takers yet.   Maybe they have not run out of USRA ideas yet.










On Thursday, July 1, 2021, 05:08:43 PM MDT, Robert Federle <rfederle@...> wrote:


I have a question,

I have a set of erection drawing of a DM&IR Yellowstone. There are several drawings in the lot and the locomotive has one print that, when unrolled is like 15 feet long.

How similar were the B&O Yellowstones to those of the DM&IR?

Thanks to all in advance.

Robert Federle
Hamilton Ohio


Wade
 

This reminds me of a young modeler on a different railroad listserv years ago, who tried to kit bash (as if you were able to) a UP Big Boy to resemble a B&O EM-1.  This was long before the affordable Bachmann EM-1 plastic model became available, and at that time, the only EM-1 model that could be had was in brass.  The kid had so much B&O pride inasmuch as he claimed that his grandfather operated EM-1's on Sand Patch.  Because the kid could not afford to buy anything brass, he did the next best thing he felt he could do, and accordingly, one diehard B&O modeler who would not accept anything less than the properly-modeled EM-1brass locomotive, tried to convince the kid that what he was doing was sacrilege, and tried to show him through a series of photo illustrations, how his kit bashed hybrid UP Big Boy/B&O EM-1 ought to look and what he should do.  This led to a series of confrontations that eventually led to the group moderator kicking the diehard B&O modeler off of the group.  Being the good natured individual that I hope I am, I decided to stay out of that conflict.  Naturally, I can see both points that both individuals tried to make, and the whole situation was sad how it turned out like it did.

Here is how a DM&IR Yellowstone looked.  A quick look shows the tender looking like that of a UP 4-8-8-4, but the locomotive itself has close superficial resemblances to an EM-1:


--
Wade Rice


Robert Federle
 

Wade, and all,

Thank you for that story. I feel if that was what that modeler wanted to try, then that was his option and I too have done things that many told me not to do and that was get married. Biggest mistake I ever made but thats history.

I felt the drawings resembled the locomotive fairly well and I would have to pull the drawings again to look at the tender but if I recall, it was the multi-wheeled affair as you show. Finding a space open enough to unroll them sould not be too much an issue but rolling them back enough to get in their hard casr storage tube may take some doing. I will see next week what I can do. Cant a fford to get them scanned but maybe I would be able to get photos but maybe not in one shot.

Thanks again Wade for the B&O modeling issue.

Robert Federle
Hamilton Ohio


From: main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io <main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io> on behalf of Wade via groups.io <whrice1950@...>
Sent: Friday, July 2, 2021 8:15 AM
To: main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io <main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList] Yellowstones
 

This reminds me of a young modeler on a different railroad listserv years ago, who tried to kit bash (as if you were able to) a UP Big Boy to resemble a B&O EM-1.  This was long before the affordable Bachmann EM-1 plastic model became available, and at that time, the only EM-1 model that could be had was in brass.  The kid had so much B&O pride inasmuch as he claimed that his grandfather operated EM-1's on Sand Patch.  Because the kid could not afford to buy anything brass, he did the next best thing he felt he could do, and accordingly, one diehard B&O modeler who would not accept anything less than the properly-modeled EM-1brass locomotive, tried to convince the kid that what he was doing was sacrilege, and tried to show him through a series of photo illustrations, how his kit bashed hybrid UP Big Boy/B&O EM-1 ought to look and what he should do.  This led to a series of confrontations that eventually led to the group moderator kicking the diehard B&O modeler off of the group.  Being the good natured individual that I hope I am, I decided to stay out of that conflict.  Naturally, I can see both points that both individuals tried to make, and the whole situation was sad how it turned out like it did.

Here is how a DM&IR Yellowstone looked.  A quick look shows the tender looking like that of a UP 4-8-8-4, but the locomotive itself has close superficial resemblances to an EM-1:


--
Wade Rice


Andrew Roberts
 

Robert, 
I’ve seen a DM&IR Yellowstone in person, and it was impressive. 

On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 8:59 AM Robert Federle <rfederle@...> wrote:
Wade, and all,

Thank you for that story. I feel if that was what that modeler wanted to try, then that was his option and I too have done things that many told me not to do and that was get married. Biggest mistake I ever made but thats history.

I felt the drawings resembled the locomotive fairly well and I would have to pull the drawings again to look at the tender but if I recall, it was the multi-wheeled affair as you show. Finding a space open enough to unroll them sould not be too much an issue but rolling them back enough to get in their hard casr storage tube may take some doing. I will see next week what I can do. Cant a fford to get them scanned but maybe I would be able to get photos but maybe not in one shot.

Thanks again Wade for the B&O modeling issue.

Robert Federle
Hamilton Ohio


From: main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io <main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io> on behalf of Wade via groups.io <whrice1950=verizon.net@groups.io>
Sent: Friday, July 2, 2021 8:15 AM
To: main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io <main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList] Yellowstones
 

This reminds me of a young modeler on a different railroad listserv years ago, who tried to kit bash (as if you were able to) a UP Big Boy to resemble a B&O EM-1.  This was long before the affordable Bachmann EM-1 plastic model became available, and at that time, the only EM-1 model that could be had was in brass.  The kid had so much B&O pride inasmuch as he claimed that his grandfather operated EM-1's on Sand Patch.  Because the kid could not afford to buy anything brass, he did the next best thing he felt he could do, and accordingly, one diehard B&O modeler who would not accept anything less than the properly-modeled EM-1brass locomotive, tried to convince the kid that what he was doing was sacrilege, and tried to show him through a series of photo illustrations, how his kit bashed hybrid UP Big Boy/B&O EM-1 ought to look and what he should do.  This led to a series of confrontations that eventually led to the group moderator kicking the diehard B&O modeler off of the group.  Being the good natured individual that I hope I am, I decided to stay out of that conflict.  Naturally, I can see both points that both individuals tried to make, and the whole situation was sad how it turned out like it did.

Here is how a DM&IR Yellowstone looked.  A quick look shows the tender looking like that of a UP 4-8-8-4, but the locomotive itself has close superficial resemblances to an EM-1:


--
Wade Rice

--
Andrew Roberts Potomac Sound LLC PO Box 223 Monrovia, MD 21770-0223 (301) 332-6111 Andrew@... www.potomacsound.com

--
Andrew Roberts
Monrovia, MD


Robert Federle
 

Thanks Andrew. Nice looking Locomotive

Robert Federle
Hamilton Ohio


From: main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io <main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io> on behalf of Andrew Roberts <soundrew@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 3, 2021 1:06 AM
To: main@baltimoreandohiorailroadlist.groups.io <main@baltimoreandohiorailroadlist.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList] Yellowstones
 
Robert, 
I’ve seen a DM&IR Yellowstone in person, and it was impressive. 

On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 8:59 AM Robert Federle <rfederle@...> wrote:
Wade, and all,

Thank you for that story. I feel if that was what that modeler wanted to try, then that was his option and I too have done things that many told me not to do and that was get married. Biggest mistake I ever made but thats history.

I felt the drawings resembled the locomotive fairly well and I would have to pull the drawings again to look at the tender but if I recall, it was the multi-wheeled affair as you show. Finding a space open enough to unroll them sould not be too much an issue but rolling them back enough to get in their hard casr storage tube may take some doing. I will see next week what I can do. Cant a fford to get them scanned but maybe I would be able to get photos but maybe not in one shot.

Thanks again Wade for the B&O modeling issue.

Robert Federle
Hamilton Ohio


From: main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io <main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io> on behalf of Wade via groups.io <whrice1950=verizon.net@groups.io>
Sent: Friday, July 2, 2021 8:15 AM
To: main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io <main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList] Yellowstones
 

This reminds me of a young modeler on a different railroad listserv years ago, who tried to kit bash (as if you were able to) a UP Big Boy to resemble a B&O EM-1.  This was long before the affordable Bachmann EM-1 plastic model became available, and at that time, the only EM-1 model that could be had was in brass.  The kid had so much B&O pride inasmuch as he claimed that his grandfather operated EM-1's on Sand Patch.  Because the kid could not afford to buy anything brass, he did the next best thing he felt he could do, and accordingly, one diehard B&O modeler who would not accept anything less than the properly-modeled EM-1brass locomotive, tried to convince the kid that what he was doing was sacrilege, and tried to show him through a series of photo illustrations, how his kit bashed hybrid UP Big Boy/B&O EM-1 ought to look and what he should do.  This led to a series of confrontations that eventually led to the group moderator kicking the diehard B&O modeler off of the group.  Being the good natured individual that I hope I am, I decided to stay out of that conflict.  Naturally, I can see both points that both individuals tried to make, and the whole situation was sad how it turned out like it did.

Here is how a DM&IR Yellowstone looked.  A quick look shows the tender looking like that of a UP 4-8-8-4, but the locomotive itself has close superficial resemblances to an EM-1:


--
Wade Rice

--
Andrew Roberts Potomac Sound LLC PO Box 223 Monrovia, MD 21770-0223 (301) 332-6111 Andrew@... www.potomacsound.com

--
Andrew Roberts
Monrovia, MD


Tom Gray
 

Happened to be driving by North Platte,one year on a road trip back home and thought, id drive in and if there were  any thing worthwhile seeing, and our timing couldn't have been more perfect, and we saw one making a cold iron move.  Even dead it was impressive.

Saturday, July 3, 2021, 5:29:31 AM PDT, Robert Federle <rfederle@...> wrote:


Thanks Andrew. Nice looking Locomotive

Robert Federle
Hamilton Ohioeb.


From: main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io <main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io> on behalf of Andrew Roberts <soundrew@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 3, 2021 1:06 AM
To: main@baltimoreandohiorailroadlist.groups.io <main@baltimoreandohiorailroadlist.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList] Yellowstones
 
Robert, 
I’ve seen a DM&IR Yellowstone in person, and it was impressive. 

On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 8:59 AM Robert Federle <rfederle@...> wrote:
Wade, and all,

Thank you for that story. I feel if that was what that modeler wanted to try, then that was his option and I too have done things that many told me not to do and that was get married. Biggest mistake I ever made but thats history.

I felt the drawings resembled the locomotive fairly well and I would have to pull the drawings again to look at the tender but if I recall, it was the multi-wheeled affair as you show. Finding a space open enough to unroll them sould not be too much an issue but rolling them back enough to get in their hard casr storage tube may take some doing. I will see next week what I can do. Cant a fford to get them scanned but maybe I would be able to get photos but maybe not in one shot.

Thanks again Wade for the B&O modeling issue.

Robert Federle
Hamilton Ohio


From: main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io <main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io> on behalf of Wade via groups.io <whrice1950=verizon.net@groups.io>
Sent: Friday, July 2, 2021 8:15 AM
To: main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io <main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList] Yellowstones
 

This reminds me of a young modeler on a different railroad listserv years ago, who tried to kit bash (as if you were able to) a UP Big Boy to resemble a B&O EM-1.  This was long before the affordable Bachmann EM-1 plastic model became available, and at that time, the only EM-1 model that could be had was in brass.  The kid had so much B&O pride inasmuch as he claimed that his grandfather operated EM-1's on Sand Patch.  Because the kid could not afford to buy anything brass, he did the next best thing he felt he could do, and accordingly, one diehard B&O modeler who would not accept anything less than the properly-modeled EM-1brass locomotive, tried to convince the kid that what he was doing was sacrilege, and tried to show him through a series of photo illustrations, how his kit bashed hybrid UP Big Boy/B&O EM-1 ought to look and what he should do.  This led to a series of confrontations that eventually led to the group moderator kicking the diehard B&O modeler off of the group.  Being the good natured individual that I hope I am, I decided to stay out of that conflict.  Naturally, I can see both points that both individuals tried to make, and the whole situation was sad how it turned out like it did.

Here is how a DM&IR Yellowstone looked.  A quick look shows the tender looking like that of a UP 4-8-8-4, but the locomotive itself has close superficial resemblances to an EM-1:


--
Wade Rice

--
Andrew Roberts Potomac Sound LLC PO Box 223 Monrovia, MD 21770-0223 (301) 332-6111 Andrew@... www.potomacsound.com

--
Andrew Roberts
Monrovia, MD


Robert Federle
 

I bet it was. That would have been great to see. I am just hopeful that there were some similarities to the B&O EM-1s. I found a page that stated the EM-1's were a bit smaller as far as cylinders and power but drivers were an inch larger than DM&IR. No photo comparisons however.

Robert Federle
Hamilton Ohio



From: main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io <main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io> on behalf of Tom Gray via groups.io <tkg2902@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 3, 2021 9:39 AM
To: main@baltimoreandohiorailroadlist.groups.io <main@baltimoreandohiorailroadlist.groups.io>; main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io <main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList] Yellowstones
 
Happened to be driving by North Platte,one year on a road trip back home and thought, id drive in and if there were  any thing worthwhile seeing, and our timing couldn't have been more perfect, and we saw one making a cold iron move.  Even dead it was impressive.

Saturday, July 3, 2021, 5:29:31 AM PDT, Robert Federle <rfederle@...> wrote:


Thanks Andrew. Nice looking Locomotive

Robert Federle
Hamilton Ohioeb.


From: main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io <main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io> on behalf of Andrew Roberts <soundrew@...>
Sent: Saturday, July 3, 2021 1:06 AM
To: main@baltimoreandohiorailroadlist.groups.io <main@baltimoreandohiorailroadlist.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList] Yellowstones
 
Robert, 
I’ve seen a DM&IR Yellowstone in person, and it was impressive. 

On Fri, Jul 2, 2021 at 8:59 AM Robert Federle <rfederle@...> wrote:
Wade, and all,

Thank you for that story. I feel if that was what that modeler wanted to try, then that was his option and I too have done things that many told me not to do and that was get married. Biggest mistake I ever made but thats history.

I felt the drawings resembled the locomotive fairly well and I would have to pull the drawings again to look at the tender but if I recall, it was the multi-wheeled affair as you show. Finding a space open enough to unroll them sould not be too much an issue but rolling them back enough to get in their hard casr storage tube may take some doing. I will see next week what I can do. Cant a fford to get them scanned but maybe I would be able to get photos but maybe not in one shot.

Thanks again Wade for the B&O modeling issue.

Robert Federle
Hamilton Ohio


From: main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io <main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io> on behalf of Wade via groups.io <whrice1950=verizon.net@groups.io>
Sent: Friday, July 2, 2021 8:15 AM
To: main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io <main@BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [BaltimoreAndOhioRailroadList] Yellowstones
 

This reminds me of a young modeler on a different railroad listserv years ago, who tried to kit bash (as if you were able to) a UP Big Boy to resemble a B&O EM-1.  This was long before the affordable Bachmann EM-1 plastic model became available, and at that time, the only EM-1 model that could be had was in brass.  The kid had so much B&O pride inasmuch as he claimed that his grandfather operated EM-1's on Sand Patch.  Because the kid could not afford to buy anything brass, he did the next best thing he felt he could do, and accordingly, one diehard B&O modeler who would not accept anything less than the properly-modeled EM-1brass locomotive, tried to convince the kid that what he was doing was sacrilege, and tried to show him through a series of photo illustrations, how his kit bashed hybrid UP Big Boy/B&O EM-1 ought to look and what he should do.  This led to a series of confrontations that eventually led to the group moderator kicking the diehard B&O modeler off of the group.  Being the good natured individual that I hope I am, I decided to stay out of that conflict.  Naturally, I can see both points that both individuals tried to make, and the whole situation was sad how it turned out like it did.

Here is how a DM&IR Yellowstone looked.  A quick look shows the tender looking like that of a UP 4-8-8-4, but the locomotive itself has close superficial resemblances to an EM-1:


--
Wade Rice

--
Andrew Roberts Potomac Sound LLC PO Box 223 Monrovia, MD 21770-0223 (301) 332-6111 Andrew@... www.potomacsound.com

--
Andrew Roberts
Monrovia, MD